I Finally Feel Sexy Again (Babs)

Original entries here, here, here and here.

This was my fourth pregnancy and birth, and both were extremely difficult. I suffered with moderate hyperemesis gravaridum throughout (helpHER.org), lost a significant amount of weight, muscle and nutrients and was on the edge of hospitalization and IV feeds throughout (even with extensive medicating). I also suffer with a spinal disease called ankylosing spondylitis which caused my vertebrae to fuse together from my coccyx up to my mid-back; it also causes very painful nerve damage in my hip joints and legs due to those bundles of nerves being trapped in the fusions.

The way my body changed over the course of this pregnancy felt very different than the other times: I was tired, and in a lot of pain and very sick. Toward the end I was mostly bedridden and had to push myself hard to get in a short walk a few times a week. I felt like I was falling apart, and was beginning to really hate my body: it was big and awkward, desperately sick and so, so painful. Through the last months of pregnancy I had to walk with a cane, which left me feeling very self-conscious and extremely unattractive. I felt like this pregnancy had stripped me of my femininity and sex appeal… and for the first time in my life, even with a disability diagnosis for years, I really felt disabled. On top of that, I’d had a relapse of an eating disorder shortly before becoming pregnant and was struggling hard with maintaining positive body image even before all that crap. As a result of that, I requested to not be weighed throughout my pregnancy, nor have weight used as a judgment of my health since it was such a fresh trigger. (Numbers alone are not a good, accurate diagnostic tool: your health is a big picture, and can’t be judged by a flawed BMI calculator or tiny range of “healthy pounds”. Big or small, your overall health is what is important to take care of and there is so much more to it than standing on a scale! Even with the diagnosis of hyperemesis, being weighed on a regular basis was not necessary to monitor my health and nutrition. You may have to argue with your care provider a little, but if scales and numbers are a trigger for you during pregnancy, you CAN avoid them so you can stay strong and supported).

Just three days ago now, 9 days past my due date, I gave birth to a beautiful baby girl. My hard and fast (two hour!) labour was very difficult with the spinal fusions, and very painful, but I made it through with the wonderful support of my midwife, doula and my husband. With their love and care I was able to achieve a second home VBAC, even with my disabilities. I have to say, waterbirth helps a TON for moms with chronic pain, or spinal disabilities!! I don’t now if I’d have been able to do it without the pool.

The night after giving birth I was laying in bed with my husband watching TV shows on my laptop with our new baby sleeping between us. I was laying there, mostly naked, and looked down over my new postpartum body all squishy and deflated and realized that… I felt really good. More than that, I felt sexy! This pregnancy that was so hard on my body and made me feel stripped bare, this birth that was so hard to get through and had me screaming at the top of my lungs, they’ve both been such huge challenges but by making it out the other side I feel strong and capable and SEXY! When I went out in public earlier I didn’t feel like sucking in my stomach and hiding my middle in loose-fitting clothes. I even went out wearing a form-fitting top, proudly showing off my squishy new postpartum body so I can proclaim to everyone, “THIS is beautiful!”. It’s been a long time since I’ve been able to look at my body in such a truly positive way. Even with a disability, with a history of struggling with an eating disorder, with severe illness and a very hard year that left me with a very changed body… I can be sensual and feminine and amazing. Four babies have passed through this body and left their footprints on it with stretch marks, cesarean scars, milky breasts, love handles, cellulite and weight gain… but today, just three days postpartum after my fourth birth, I feel sexier than I ever have.

I’ve posted to this site before, several times, but I never thought I’d ever have the guts to submit any images of myself fully nude. Even while I took these images through pregnancy, hoping that I’d eventually find the courage to submit (anonymously, maybe with my head cut off and my tattoo obscured! PS. that’s why my head is cut off in a bunch of these!) I didn’t really believe I’d be able to, so it brings me a lot of joy to post these (albeit still a little nervous…) and say, “I FEEL GREAT!”. Now I feel like encouraging everyone to do the same thing. Take pictures of your body, and not just any old pictures – put aside some time and experiment with taking some really nice photos. Go get some boudoir photos done if you don’t want to or can’t take your own, but whatever you do don’t neglect capturing some of your beauty… even if you feel crappy about yourself.

Despite I felt like absolute hell and hating my body through most of my pregnancy, I’m really grateful to myself that I pushed through to document my changes. I think it’s in us all to learn how to appreciate how amazing our bodies are in all their power. Just look at the incredible things they can do! Thanks to this site I found the motivation to nurture that, and I’m really glad I stuck to it.

(As a note: I’m a professional photographer, so these were taken by me with professional gear. Even though you can’t see them very well there are stretch marks and scars there, though I don’t have the type of genes that get a lot. Good quality, even lighting makes a big difference in how your skin appears in pictures. For anyone curious to experiment with their own lighting, I included a “behind the scenes” photo to show how everything was set up to take these. I used a Nikon SB800 flash mounted on a stand with a home-made beauty dish made out of a planter and some spare parts for about $12 total (instructions here: https://davidtejada.blogspot.com/2008/04/beauty-dish-for-sb-800.html), and a desk lamp pointed at the corner of the wall behind me to reduce some of the shadows. From there just experiment with the settings until you find something that looks good! I triggered my light with a radio controlled device called a Pocket Wizard, but you can just use a sync cord or one of many other inexpensive options and get the exact same results. You also don’t have to use a big fancy flash either, any will work including the cheap Vivitar 285V which runs about $90. :)

Mother of 3 (Misty)

Age: 31
3 pregnancies. 3 live births.
Children ages: 14, 12, 10 (All girls)
I am 10yrs postpartum

I am 31yrs old, and the mother of three girls, ages 14, 12, and 10. My first two daughters were born natural, and my last daughter was born by cesarean. I had my first daughter when I was 16, my second daughter when I was 19, and my third daughter when I was 21. It wasn’t until my second daughter, that I developed saggy skin on my stomach area.

This was very hard for me to deal with. I was only 19 at the time, and I felt that I was no longer sexy, and desirable. My self-esteem was affected greatly, for years to come.

I tried everything that I could to look better. I even starved myself down to 105lbs. Nothing I did, could take away the lose skin. I wanted plastic surgery so bad, but I could never afford it.

I breastfed all my children, and I had voluptuous breast at that time. But, the minute that I stopped breastfeeding, my boobs shrank to smaller than an A. This was hard for me to deal with as well. I felt that I had lost all my sexual attractiveness. I couldn’t wear anything that showed my stomach, and my breasts were too small to fit into any bras. It was very stressful.

About 1 yr ago, I gained around 30lbs, and went from 130lbs to 160lbs. The only benefit to this was that my breast got a little bigger. Currently I am trying to lose weight due to health issues.

I wish that I could say that over the years I no longer worry about my body. But, that’s not true. I have accepted the way that it is, but I don’t like it. I live in a college town, so it is really hard for me when I see all the young girls running around in the summer time. Sometimes I still feel like I’m not a woman, or sexy like other women. I feel like I missed out on having a youthful body since mine was messed up at such an early age.

I have had men say very mean and hurtful things about my body, and my body has kept me from doing a lot of things, and having confidence to do things.

But, with that all said, my children are the light of my life. I wouldn’t trade them for anything, not even the sexiest body in the world, or riches galore. I love you Marissa, Alanna, and Senora!!

My Twin Skin (Anonymous)

I’m trying to come to terms with my twin skin.

Before I got pregnant I was a little over my prefered weight at about 125 lbs. I gained almost 70 lbs during the pregancy, but most of it was swelling and of course two babies weight a lot too. After my boys were born I lost most of the weight in a couple of weeks, but after that I’ve been stuck at around 140 lbs. I don’t think my weight is so much of an issue, but I wish I could lose a few pounds.

What really bothers me is the way that the pregnancy has treated my body – I had small boobs before, and now after the breastfeeding they are a whole cup size smaller – and one sags and the other one doesn’t! My already big thighs and butt got even bigger (I think that is actually where most of the extra pounds are sitting) and of course my stomach, well it’s just not to describe!

I think I look absolutely terrible. But I feel like I also have to mention: I love my little boys to pieces and I don’t want to remember what it was like without them – and I know I could have gotten a lot more of stretchmarks and a bigger twin skin – but I wish I could have my old body back! Some days (most days) I am okay with it and just try to wear clothing that hides it, but some days (like today) I go on a bummer about it and want to feel sexy again.

~Age: 21
~Number of pregnancies and births: 1 nearly full term twin pregnancy, 2 births
~The age of your children, or how far postpartum you are: 2 boys, 12 months old.

The Thoughts that Plague (Elizabeth Ashby)

age 22
2 pregnancies and children aged 3 1/2 and 10mnths

I had split up with my boyfriend 2 weeks before I found out I was 8 weeks pregnant with my first daughter. Before the pregnancy I had never been over 50kg in my life (I am 5ft 1in). I smoked 50cigarrettes a day, smoked a lot of pot and drank too much beer. After finding out I was pregnant I completely stopped pot and beer immediately but was only able to cut back to about 5 a day (max) cigarettes. Depending on how sick I was on any given day.

I had intense migraines where I would not be able to move and my housemate would have to pour bits of water into my mouth to try to help me drink. I barely kept any food down the entire pregnancy and swelled out to 65kg.

I complained to my G.P about various problems I was having and he told me I was “a paranoid first time young mum”

I believed him.

At 6mnths I quit work because I was just too sick to continue and moved in with my mother. However as there was no room there as soon as my centrelink was approved I moved in with my ex-boyfriends parents.

When I was 36weeks gestation I woke up one morning at 5am surrounded in blood. I thought I had miscarried. I cleaned myself up as best I could and went and knocked on my ex’s parents bedroom door and asked his mom to drive me to the hospital.

We got to the hospital and after examining me and stabilizing me they informed me that we had probably arrived with around half an hour to spare for my life.

They performed an emergency c-section and my first beautiful daughter was born at 4 lb 2 oz.

When I asked why this had happened they said I had pre-eclampsia but not to worry it shouldn’t happen again.

My wound came open once about a month later and got infected but I gained control and it healed tho the skin for about 2 inches above never really stopped being sensitive.

My ex and I started out our new journey of parenthood fairly angry with each other and fought a lot. However slowly we started to become friends again and then one day we both admitted we were still in love. We got back together when she was 8months old.

I got back to 54kg just before her 1st birthday and proposed to him. He said yes.

We ummed and uhhed about wanting another child and then near her second birthday we decided we did.

We got my implanon rod taken out and 2months later I was pregnant.

The bleeding started at 5 weeks. The migraines, swelling and other issues started again.

This time I didn’t rest until we found a doctor who would look at my problems properly.

They found out I made extremely bad placenta (not very nutritional and clotted easily)

Also I was leaking the amniotic fluid but we were not aware because it was not leaking out of me. Just going into my body somewhere.

At 18weeks a doctor told me that there was a minuscule chance she would be survive and I should have an amniocenteses. I have normally always been against them but I was in so much shock I just agreed.

He put the needle in and it hurt like hell I could feel it wriggling inside me. He then said he’s missed the amniotic sac and would have to try again.

By this stage I was crying. He did it again and once again said he’d missed and wanted to do it again. It was all I could do to choke out “no” and when he tried to argue with me my sister who was with me stood firm for me. He backed off.

So of course I had gone through this horrible experience (my husband said I screamed in my sleep for two weeks afterwards) for no results.

At twenty weeks they told us that we should prepare for the worst. That we were not past the stage where she was a “legal human life’ and that cremation/burial were legally required and if we wanted a funeral.

The entire time they had been berating me for not getting more bedrest. All I could think was you look after my other daughter then!

At 24weeks I went into the hospital for another checkup (they were weekly) and my doctor said she was admitting me immediately as my blood pressure had sky rocketed and therefore the pre-eclampsia was back.

At 26weeks it went even higher, beyond fatal high and they said they were doing another c-section. They weren’t sure how soon. (I was now 73kgs)

My mother fiancé and I spent a horrific 24hours in a hospital birthing suite whilst listening to other women screaming while giving birth. They injected me with something and it felt like my veins were on fire for hours and hours. They kept inserting my catheter wrong but wouldn’t let me go to the toilet properly so I was in pain and discomfort and had to keep getting my gown and sheets changed. My poor mother and fiancé caught my attitude as I got more and more upset.

Finally they told us I was going in. we waited in the anesthetists room for half an hour before they told us it was on hold again. Back to the room we went.

A while later we were back again. They told me I should sit up for the epidural but I told them that for my first c-section I had almost knocked out the nurse leaning over me cuz my back had spasmed when they put the epidural in. He tried to put the epidural in 4 times with me lying down. Then 4 times sitting. He got it on the 8th try.

I was in immense pain the entire time with shooting pains between my hip and knee on my left side and pain all up and down my back. I was crying hard.

My fiance had just stood up to tell him no more when he said it was in. (I have since found out that it was a training doctor. Not happy!)

The surgery went well so to speak. I cried the whole way through, barely remembered her cry when she was out. Then I remember them saying they were going to have to put me under as I was too distraught.

I woke up in a kind of waiting room. My sister came to visit me and said my fiancé was upstairs with the baby. She was born 661g.

I finally got released about a week and a half later. It was extremely hard being in my room with other mums coming and going who had their babies.

An exact month after she was born we got married. A small ceremony with only immediate family and friends at my in-laws house. All up including the celebrant was $1000. (Australian). (I was very proud of that since we do struggle financially but still didn’t want a registry wedding)

When she was 4 ½ months old they finally released her. On oxygen. At 8mnths she came off it during the day then at 9mnths she came off it completely. So it’s still early days but it looks good. She has chronic lung disease and we will have to watch out for so many things throughout her life and have so many doctors appointments but she’s made it.

I am now 77kgs and although I have not increased in weight since our wedding I have not been able to loose any either. I walk and eat well. My wound has come open 3 times so it’s a constant battle.

I have been diagnosed with chronic depression dating back to when I was 13 from having an emotionally abusive relationship with one member of my family. I have been able to battle it with an amazing medication although we are still trying to get a councilor for me that I can afford (the only one we had didn’t want to talk to me because she didn’t think she could help me she claimed).

We have been told that we shouldn’t have any more children. They said the same things would happen and even if they baby survived I very likely wouldn’t.

I am slowly getting better with my image of myself (my husband is amazing) but I still definitely have my down days so I come on the shape of a mother and it helps me lift myself back up.

My thanks to every single person who has helped me in my life and everyone who has posted on here for helping me be a better me.

first photo: before my pregnancies getting ready for work.
Second Photo: when my first daughter was about 11mnths
Third photo: me in my wedding dress and my eldest daughter
Last three photos: me today.

The Ups and Downs (Anonymous)

Pregnancies:6
Births: 4
PP: 130
Full Term: 196
Postpardum: 130
Divorce: 164

Well, I am a proud mom of four kids. I have one girl 11, and three boys 9,7,3. I was able to lose the weight with each kid and after my fourth I was able to get back to my PP weight. However, I got a divorce over 2 years ago and put on almost 40 pounds. I have struggled for a while to get it off and although I am dating a wonderful man who is very loving I still feel pretty bummed about my body. I hate the stretch marks and I hate the loose skin. I am commited to losing the weight now and working out, I just am now almost 32 years old and it takes a lot longer than I remembered. Anyway, I saw this site and have found it inspiring to see and read the stories.

Tired of Feeling Ashamed (Elizabeth)

Previous post here.

I have submitted entries to shape of a mother from my 3rd and 4th pregnancies. Today I felt I need to do this again. I feel horrible about my body today. Yesterday I got into an argument with my youngest child’s father. this is part of an e-mail he sent me;

“Did that guy you were seeing see you naked yet? Cannot blame you for wanting to wait. Don’t wanna scare him off. Better keep your bra on though. After how much they sagged before I cannot imagine how bad they look now. Although they might be full of milk at the moment and temporarily okay. Better hook him now quick before you stop cause its gonna be bad. I don’t remember your body looking good. You forget you had to beg me for sex. I only did to shut you up. Lol. What I remember was a twenty nine year old with the body of at least a forty year old. And I saw a forty year old once and she had three kids and her body was much better. You did not look too bad with your clothes on but… lol. Just sayin. Plus now you got that chunky look. Not my thing. Out of every woman I have seen naked that had kids you have one of the worst bodies I have ever seen. How many have you seen?”

I included what he said to me, because of how much it hurts me to hear the father of my child say these things to me. I wonder if anyone else has been told these things by someone they were once very close to, and how to deal with the hurt. I know my flaws, I had confided in that man about them in the past because I used to trust him. I know what he is saying about how I look is pretty much the truth. I am not blind. I just wish I didn’t care anymore.

I want to be able to say that I am proud of my body for growing and feeding 4 beautiful, healthy babies, and mean it. I want to say that I feel so blessed to have these children that I don’t care what my body looks like at all. I want to feel happy about it, and lucky, and I want to stop being self conscious and ashamed, and sad when I see my self in the mirror after a shower, or if I ever become intimate with someone again. But I don’t see it happening. I was in good shape before this pregnancy but was too sick to exercise during, and I have not started back up, I know that might help my feelings a little, but exercise cannot change some things. wide hips I have always had and stretched out skin. I am most ashamed of my breasts, I have breastfed for over 4 years of my life and counting. I should feel lucky to have had that opportunity and the bonding with my children. I don’t see myself ever spending money on plastic surgery. Even though I want to, I would feel too guilty to spend money on something like that. And I would feel like a fake. I have never really liked my body, never felt comfortable in my skin, even as a child. One thing I always hated was the scar below my belly button from when I was an infant. I never hated the way I look more than I do now. It is definitely amplified after 4 children and being talked to like that by more than one of my exes. Why do I feel so embarrassed about how I look? How can I get over this so I can spend that time on thinking about how awesome my kids are instead of how bad I look? Feeling this way just adds guilt to my shame.

~Your Age: 30 years old
~Number of pregnancies and births: 6 pregnancies and 4 births
~The age of your children, or how far postpartum you are: 14 yrs old, 11 yrs old, 3 yrs old, and 2 months old today :) (2 months postpartum)

What I feel on the inside doesn’t match the outside… (Anonymous)

I am 16 months pp and have slowly lost a few pounds here and there. It’s not the weight that gets me down, but how my body has become so misshapen. My breasts are so saggy and the one is double the size of the other. My back side is just a blob of fat. I don’t feel sexy anymore. I can’t physically do the things I used to. I know that for my health and so I can live a long life, I need to lose weight, but it gets me so down. When I get ready and look in the mirror I see a beautiful person, but when I see pictures, I’m so ashamed at what my body looks like.

A month before I had my daughter, her dad left me. I have this thought in the back of my head that if I lose the weight and start looking good that he’ll notice me and come back. Believe me, I know all the things wrong with that statement :)

Maybe some of you have some advice about what to do to be motivated when you are so down about your body. I love my little girl sooooo much and would do it all over again, but I want me back. I want parts of the person I was before I had her back also.

Age 25
1 Pregnancy, 1 Birth
Girl, Reese, age 16 months

Just Me (Anonymous)

I’ve been pregnant twice and have a fantastic “5 and 3/4 year old” daughter. I’m 38, 5’2″, and 140 pounds, which puts me right at the beginning of the overweight BMI category [per World Health Organization]. With my ribcage measuring at 30″ and bust at 39″, my bra size is a preposterous 30-I, or 32-H, or 34-G. How much do breasts weigh anyway?

Alongside many survivors of child sexual abuse and neglect I have struggled with disordered eating, body dysmorphia, toxic self-criticism and suicide attempts. I recently realized that perhaps one of the reasons I feel so shocked and dismayed when I catch an unexpected glance of myself in the mirror is that I am looking out with the eyes of a child and looking back as a media-hazed critic aware of the most minute of flaws.

After a flux throughout early adulthood stabilizing my health and weight I arrived pre-pregnancy at 115 pounds quite consciously, still aware of the imperfections of pendulous breasts and compulsively squeezing into jeans that were a size too small, even though I was smaller than most Americans. I breastfed for 2.5 years and happily, sanely, got down to 125 pounds at 3 years postpartum. Then I started taking a beta-blocker medication to reduce PTSD symptoms and my weight went straight up to 140+. I’ve tried for a year balancing calories in and out after quitting the meds to get the weight to drop, but it really isn’t going anywhere despite my ongoing concerted effort! My best hope is to keep it from going up since I’m teetering on the edge of overweight and my mother is obese with diabetes.

I have searched the web for photographs of actual women my age and size in their “natural” state to help me get a grip on body image anxieties, but I’m sure to no surprise, found very VERY few, even though my body type seems to be pretty common. I did find a lot of porn, some celebrations of anorexia, airbrushed and photo-shopped celebrities, and this website. I also found an energetic youTube video from a 18 years younger woman who is my size and happy as a clam, since she just lost 30 pounds to get there.

For my photograph, I choose to use a pose and location that signified feeling good in my body, which I think should be a true and heavily weighted measure of health. I also wanted to include as many of my body parts as possible, to wander away from the fragmented dissociation that is typical with body dysmorphia and celebrate all of the parts that make me. I also wanted to include my face/head, especially after viewing many youTube documentations of weightloss that cut the subject off at the neck. Ironically, as I watched those headless weigh-ins and self-assessments, my appreciation for each woman was unbounded. If I could feel limitless love for the body of a headless stranger, no matter her size, couldn’t I feel it for myself?

Pregnancy changes: My feet increased by 1/2 a size. My hips spread out and added several inches in that area. My breast cup has increased several sizes. If I gain weight now, it is likely to go into my lovely mummy tummy.

I am very happy to participate in this website and hope that many more women do, so that finding reflective non-sexualized images is not a struggle for others. My husband wants to know, is there a “Shape of a Father” website?

3 Years Later (Anonymous)

I’m coming up on my daughter’s third birthday and it was sort of a shock to realize that this was also (obviously) the three-year anniversary of my c-section. I hadn’t planned on a c-section and was pretty upset that I ended up having one. I had figured that my body would be different after pregnancy and childbirth. In fact, I remember looking at this very website before I was even pregnant and being shocked at how some women’s bodies had changed. Yet, but I’m still surprised at how different my body is now even though I *am* one of those women now. I have yet to fully come to accept it. I’ve never had a great figure but I do mourn the loss of what I had. I love my daughter very very much and have no regrets but I don’t like what I see in the mirror and usually avoid even looking. I probably weigh just about the same as I did when I got pregnant, maybe about 5 lbs more but even when I weighed 30 lbs more pre-pregnancy I liked my body better. The weird sagging apron of fat around my mid-section is a source of dismay and embarrassment and even presents problems for clothing options. I don’t fully understand why my body looks like this now. Is it the c-section? According to my doctors there was no complications with the surgery and I healed well. I didn’t have diastasis recti. Is it just age? I don’t know. I’ve started going to the gym again and trying to watch what I eat but I have to admit, I don’t think it’s going to get better seeing as I’ve been 30 lbs heavier and never looked like this. I think it’s just the way I look now and I need to learn to accept it. Three years later.

Your Age: 43 (gave birth at 40)
Number of pregnancies and births: 1/1
The age of your children, or how far postpartum you are: 3 years

I Love My Body…With Clothes ON! (Anonymous)

I found out I was pregnant with my first child when I was 19 years old. I was extremely excited but of course I was scared about what was to come. I was actually anxious to start to show…that didn’t happen until I was 6 months. Then I exploded like a hot air balloon. In the back of my head I always knew that I would get stretch marks, gain a lot of weight and look a hot mess because it was genetic. Both my mom and sisters gained a lot of weight…and “gave birth” via C-Section! :-(

I was 135lbs pre-pregnancy. When I gave birth to my child I weighed in at 209lbs at the hospital…74lbs. I am only 5’4″ so that looked disgusting. I had to have a C-Section because I had “Failure To Progress” which I think is a load of BS since neither I nor the baby was in any kind of danger. I think my doctor just wanted to go home. I digress. I breast fed for 9 months with baby #1. I only got back down to 175lbs. Then got preggers with baby #2 when baby #1 was 13 months. I had immense stretch marks already but there was no reason to do anything about them since I was already preggers again.

After baby #2 I hated my body. I was fat and stratted up (straie for stretch marks – you know – instead of tatted up?! Yeah Im corney). I had stretch marks everywhere except my feet, head, arms and hands. Literally. I was so depressed. I did go on WW and I lost 50 pounds and got all the way back down to 135lbs! But then me and their father split and I gained a lot back keeping me at 155lbs for two years but then I became ill a few months ago and am now at 144lbs.

The pictures below show my tummy…which I want a Tummy Tuck because doctors said that is the ONLY way to get rid of all the excess skin and stretch marks. I have a six back under the loose skin. I’ve always been muscular. I’ve tried to show you guys as close as possible the ones on my thighs, but, and sides.

To me there is nothing special about stretch marks. Getting rid of them does NOT mean that I resent my children…that’s the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I deserve to be happy with my body regardless of having children…

* Age: 25
* Number of pregnancies and births: 2 Pregnancies, 2 Births
* The age of your children, or how far postpartum you are: 5 and 3: 3 years PP.